Talk:Fahrenheit 451

Clarisse's age

Resolved

Clarisse is "almost 17" at the beginning of the novel. So, she is "16" or "almost 17", not "17". - SummerPhD (talk) 04:58, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Not sure where I got that from, but on page 5 (my edition anyway) she says, "I'm seventeen and crazy." - SummerPhD (talk) 05:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

i can back this. She says "I'm seventeen and crazy." in my 60th edition 2601:145:C300:47E0:8C5C:5572:BCC2:AFED (talk) 19:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

While she does say that, later in the novel she says that she'll be seventeen in a month, I think. I remember her saying she isn't seventeen yet, just not what page it is on. Umbreon00 (talk) 17:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

In addition to the quote I found in the book itself, various Cliff's Notes-esque summaries I found all identify her as being 17. If you find your quote, we might have something. From where I'm sitting, though, the only sources we have say 17. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:58, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

In my edition, she says she is "17 and crazy" on page 21, but corrects herself to say that she is 17 "next month" on page 23. 71.193.22.55 (talk) 05:14, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

The anon is correct. I shall quote it: "Yes." He thought about it. "Yes, I have. God knows why. You're peculiar, you're aggravating, yet you're so easy to forgive. You say you're seventeen?"

"Well--Next month."

"How odd. How strange. And my wife is thirty and yet you seem so much older at times I can't get over it."

Page 23, lines 7, 8, and 9. Umbreon00 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I can independently confirm that she is 16. An anonymous user changed it back even after this discussion. After concluding my post here, I will see what clarifications I can make in the article to be accurate. I have the book on a Kindle and as authority and validity for my case, I will be uploading pictures. First, I have searched the book for "sixteen". I found one entry. It is unrelated. I am unsure how to upload the image, if somebody would like it, they could help me. I then searched the book for "seventeen". This yielded three results. One of these is here saying she is a month shy of seventeen. This is later in the story. I also have the image for this one. I will most likely edit the page to accomodate a chronologically natural understanding of the book. This will be the most accurate and practical solution. It will also prevent this from becoming an issue in the future as it provides clarifying information. Michael Harrington 03:00, 6 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DefensorOfApollo (talk • contribs)

She is in fact, 16, not 17. I have corrected the mistake in the article and put a code comment to warn people about making the mistake that she is 17. Marking as resolved. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Themes

One of the sections I'm least happy about in the article is the section on themes, which seems largely based on just p.59 of Reid's Ray Bradbury: A Critical Companion. I'm not quite sure how it should be written but I think gathering different themes suggested by various writers is a good start. You may suggest or add potential themes to the list I've started below. Jason Quinn (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

list of potential themes

• censorship

• a frequent cited theme although Bradbury himself seems to distance himself from it as a purposed one

• resistance against conformity imposed by a mass media

• Reid p.99 (originally suggested by M. Keith Booker?)
• de Koster p.95: Kingsley Amis's "A Skillfully Drawn Conformist Hell"

• use of technology to control individuals

• Reid p.99 (originally suggested by M. Keith Booker?)

• self-examination

• de Koster p.55: Rafeeq O. McGiveron's "Mirrors and Self-Examination in Fahrenheit 451"

• metamorphosis

• de Koster p.63: Wayne L. Johnson's "Montag's Spiritual Development"

• the importance of wilderness

• de Koster p.66: Rafeeq O. McGiveron's "The Power of Wilderness in Fahrenheit 451"

• consumerism

• de Koster p.85: David Seed's "A Condemnation of Consumerism"

• nihilism

• de Koster p.113: William F. Touponce's "Overcoming Nihilism in the Modern World"

Agree and there is an appearance of bias in the writing. It notes that he wrote it in the "McCarthy Era" and concludes as fact "he was concerned about censorship" The next paragraph showing an opposing opinion it states, "Instead he usually claimed that the real messages..." using the word "claimed" appears to intentionally suggest that Bradbury's interpretation of his book are incorrect or that he is not being honest. This does not appear to be unbiased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.156.188.216 (talk) 05:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"claims" merely gives his claim versus what others have taken from it. An author's claims on what a book is "about" may differ from what the generality of readers may gather, without the author being dishonest or incorrect about what is in the end an opinion, not an objective fact. 2604:2000:F64D:FC00:4CA:813C:8550:16FE (talk) 19:32, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

in this interview in LA Weekly from 2007 Bradbury discusses "Fahrenheit 451 is not, he says firmly, a story about government censorship. Nor was it a response to Senator Joseph McCarthy"

and "Bradbury, a man living in the creative and industrial center of reality TV and one-hour dramas, says it is, in fact, a story about how television destroys interest in reading literature."

a previous poster noted an earlier interview to suggest that Bradbury may be in error or changed his mind later. Since this is posted, it must be noted this fact from the article, "As early as 1951, Bradbury presaged his fears about TV, in a letter about the dangers of radio, written to fantasy and science-fiction writer Richard Matheson." you can read the quote in the link

The Author states that Bradbury is clear on his point, "But one of L.A.’s best-known residents wants it understood that when he wrote it he was far more concerned with the dulling effects of TV on people than he was on the silencing effect of a heavy-handed government."

Should these facts and this reference be added to the topic? The documented opinions of the author on his own work may be quite relevant.

http://www.laweekly.com/2007-05-31/news/ray-bradbury-fahrenheit-451-misinterpreted/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.156.188.216 (talk) 05:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC) 50.156.188.216 (talk) 06:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The impression I have is that the censorship angle was somewhat ginned up by his publisher when the book came out as a means of providing topical appeal and thereby increasing sales (ironically enough.) Also think his censorship concerns predated the McCarthyism era (strictly, from Feb. 1950) The Hollywood Ten were right in his bailiwick, afetr all. Bradbury spoke and wrote against McCarthy by name in 1952-53.68.178.50.46 (talk) 20:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 2 May 2016

in most editions the book has 158 pages, please change page cout 24.37.33.74 (talk) 15:15, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

 Not done - the Simon & Schuster versions currently offered by Amazon have either 249 pages or 159 pages and you have not cited any reliable sources to back up your request for 158. AFAIK we use the original hardback version for page counts - Arjayay (talk) 15:47, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

The Simon & Schusters edition has only 158 pages of Fahrenheit 451. After pages 159 it contains "History, Context, and Criticism" by Jonathan R. Eller. That edition is available in the internet archive.

I looked into a few different editions they all seem to have between 158 and 180 pages. 2003:D4:BF16:6500:A3DC:AEE9:A889:FED6 (talk) 14:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Worked at Kingsport Press 34 years. Page count between different editions will depend on pointsize and font of the text; plus the problem of the Bal-Hi edition cleaned up for school libraries. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 19:44, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Nazi book burning as inspirational source

Article https://time.com/5272968/fahrenheit-451-book-burning-history/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B00:4776:A06E:7CA6:1C71:7C49 (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I wonder what Bradbury would have made of our cancel culture today?TheBaron0530 (talk) 19:03, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Bible or not?

Resolved

The article currently states that the Montag stole the Bible and the Bible was burned. If I recall, it is never directly stated the book is the Bible. It's only very indirectly implied. Can anyone provide evidence otherwise? Jason Quinn (talk) 02:30, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

"Montag's hands picked up the Bible. He saw what his hands had done and he looked surprised. 'Would you like to own this?' Faber said, 'I'd give my own right arm.' Montag stood there and waited for the next thing to happen. His hands, by themselves, like two men working together, began to rip the pages from the book. The hands tore the flyleaf and then the first and then the second page." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.22.162 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I cleared up my own confusion. And I think the article is fine. I will close this issue. For my own reference, there's the most important parts: There's a conversation between Montag and Mildred that goes:

Montag showed her a book. "This is the Old and New Testament, and-"

"Don't start that again!"
"It might be the last copy in this part of the world."
"You've got to hand it back tonight, don't you know? Captain Beatty knows you've got it, doesn't he?"
"I don't think he knows which book I stole. But how do I choose a substitute? Do I turn in Mr. Jefferson? Mr. Thoreau? Which is least valuable? If I pick a substitute and Beatty does know which book I stole, he'll guess we've an entire library here!"

Mildred's mouth twitched. "See what you're doing? You'll ruin us! Who's more important, me or that Bible?" She was beginning to shriek now, sitting there like a wax doll melting in its own heat.

Immediately after this passage comes this paragraph in which Montag imagines a conversation between himself and Captain Beatty:

He could hear Beatty's voice. "Sit down, Montag. Watch. Delicately, like the petals of a flower. Light the first page, light the second page. Each becomes a black butterfly. Beautiful, eh? Light the third page from the second and so on, chainsmoking, chapter by chapter, all the silly things the words mean, all the false promises, all the secondhand notions and time-worn philosophies." There sat Beatty, perspiring gently, the floor littered with swarms of black moths that had died in a single storm Mildred stopped screaming as quickly as she started. Montag was not listening. "There's only one thing to do," he said. "Some time before tonight when I give the book to Beatty, I've got to have a duplicate made."

So, yes, the book depicts the (imagined) burning of the Bible (as a terrible act). But the Bible was never burned. (These things were what the passage of time had twisted in my mind to cause some confusion.)

Then there's an extended discussion between Montag and Faber. In it there's this

Montag's hands picked up the Bible. He saw what his hands had done and he looked surprised.

"Would you like to own this?"
Faber said, "I'd give my right arm."
Montag stood there and waited for the next thing to happen. His hands, by themselves, like two men working together, began to rip the pages from the book. The hands tore the flyleaf and then the first and then the second page.

"Idiot, what're you doing!" Faber sprang up, as if he had been struck. He fell, against Montag. Montag warded him off and let his hands continue. Six more pages fell to the floor. He picked them up and wadded the paper under Faber's gaze.

So the Bible is torn. From later in the same dialogue between Montag and Faber, it appears he left the book with Faber and then says to Faber before he leaves:

"We all do what we do," said Montag. He put the Bible in the old man's hands. "Here. I'll chance turning in a substitute. Tomorrow--"

which suggests he didn't actually give the Bible to Captain Beatty. Then he has several books when he is reading to Mrs. Bowles and Mrs. Phelps. And went he finally goes to Captain Beatty, it ends with

He put his hand to one side, palm up, for a gift. Montag put the book in it. Without even glancing at the title, Beatty tossed the book into the trash-basket and lit a cigarette.

so presumably it was not the Bible that was given to Beatty. (Although since Mildred ratted him out, he probably knew Montag had a Bible. Jason Quinn (talk) 12:03, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Song by the same name (Posted without title)

There should be some mention of Tod Rundgren ‘s Song “ Fahrenheit 451” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.165.84 (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

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Intro

What is "personified" doing in the intro: where books have been personified and outlawed? Chuunen Baka (talk • contribs) 14:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Three months on, and this has not been responded to. I suggest "personified and " be removed. Kdammers (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Finally got around to removing it! Chuunen Baka (talk • contribs) 12:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)